Curse

Ugh · Feb 21, 2011, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Personally, the only time I feel a ranger condition build would be somewhat worthwhile is in conjunction with a Fragility/Fevered Dreams mesmer, and, even then, it wouldn't be that good when it worked. Also, it could be hard (or just a pain in the ass) to cooperate with a FD hero, and you'd have to have a weird attribute spread to take full advantage of Fragility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oziriz

Not sure what you where thinking on this one, Archer's Signet is Elite and so is both Burning Arrow and Incendiary Arrows hence you (sadly) can't bring it along with any of those two.
P.S. I'm not trying to be a smartass, just wondering if you where thinking something that didn't come through in your post.

She was giving two separate alternatives, one with BA and one with AS.

Bad Company Sin · Feb 22, 2011, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It would have been stupid to leave it out of any bar that was designed to do single target damage. It was never that standard on AoE oriented builds. It was also the skill that made rangers slightly worthwhile for (single target) damage - 4-5 seconds to kill something annoying was doable, with 8 seconds there's more time for the target to get healed and protted in area's where this occurs.

Relaxed maybe, but effective? If you're going to use Epidemic, bring Burning Arrow instead of Incendiary Arrows, for it's longer burning. You might consider Archer's Signet, which prolonges the duration of applied conditions, and since you're using Epidemic, it is appled twice.

Rangers are a utility profession, : ) shouldn't be trying to kill in 4-5 seconds but thats my opinion there are still easy enough ways to do that without Ascan. O.o Alsooooo if something is annoying, being healed, Dshot that other enemy thats doing the healing? I think thats what interrupts are for.

Shortbow(Faster attack speed I believe)

Burning Arrow
Read The Wind
"IATS!"
an IAS
??? idk.

Amy Awien · Feb 22, 2011, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Idk?

No matter what damage boosts you bring now, you could bring them before and you're still down the 60% from AS - meaning it takes longer to kill.

Why do people always come with the 'utility' argument, instead of listening to those involved? What does it mean, 'utility'? Define 'utility' for us, and how that 'utility' is in any way useful in the current PvE.

You don't just switch targets and D-shot a healing skill - many of them are barely interruptable and even when it's hardly effective to try because of the time it takes to observe, wait and properly time it - time during which you can do nothing but auto-attack, time during which a half-decent melee char would have inflicted damage 10 times worth the healing your d-shot is preventing.

Ugh · Feb 22, 2011, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Company Sin

Rangers are a utility profession, : )

Then they are a utility profession without utility. Unfortunate.

Belzebu · Feb 22, 2011, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Idk?

Probably "I don't know"

Yeah builds for R/D now are at best not worth.

Seems that R/P is a good option if not the best, taking off the bad AI of the pets <_<, you have IAS, deep wound, bleeding, regenerations and e-management at low energy cost, also you have space for a shield for better survivability, and remember that usually you'll be with heroes, so let them do the nuke while you do the pulling/tanking/calling and stuff.

Fay Vert · Feb 22, 2011, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Utility = You suck at everything better than all the other professions.

miriforst · Feb 23, 2011, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Company Sin

Rangers are a utility profession, : ) shouldn't be trying to kill in 4-5 seconds but thats my opinion there are still easy enough ways to do that without Ascan. O.o Alsooooo if something is annoying, being healed, Dshot that other enemy thats doing the healing? I think thats what interrupts are for.

Shortbow(Faster attack speed I believe)

Burning Arrow
Read The Wind
"IATS!"
an IAS
??? idk.

If you wan't interrupts in pve go mesmer. Rangers interrupts are usable in pvp not pve.

Rites · Feb 23, 2011, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Utility = You suck at everything better than all the other professions.

wrong

Rangers were never meant to be a high DPS class, what they are "meant" to be used for is degen through bleeding and poison, crippling, interrupting, and with proper forethought, trapping.

But because many in the gaming community believe in the all mighty DPS, and because many are morons, they seem to lack the intelligence to play a ranger according to their proper roles, thus many QQ threads about rangers being "inadequate".

as a side note:
just like paragons, it is best to have at least 2 rangers on a team complimenting each others builds

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

The Ranger profession in GuildWars is different from its other game counterparts. Most online games give the Ranger pretty much sniper-like ability to deal damage with their bow.
I think this is most likely the cause for common dislike of the profession in GuildWars. Its pretty basic that most players tend to see likenesses between games and want the games to play out the same way ("How dare I be forced to learn something new!!!").

The Ranger in GuildWars does not play as similarly to other game's versions as people like, and thus the class is given a bad name because players don't want to learn how to work the mechanics. And why should they? They can move to one of the other professions in the game which most of them can pretty much play the same as their other game counterparts.
Contrary to belief (both political and mentality) people hate change.

and on this... i concur whole heartedly

RedDog91 · Feb 23, 2011, 06:09 PM // 18:09

The Ranger profession in GuildWars is different from its other game counterparts. Most online games give the Ranger pretty much sniper-like ability to deal damage with their bow.
I think this is most likely the cause for common dislike of the profession in GuildWars. Its pretty basic that most players tend to see likenesses between games and want the games to play out the same way ("How dare I be forced to learn something new!!!").

The Ranger in GuildWars does not play as similarly to other game's versions as people like, and thus the class is given a bad name because players don't want to learn how to work the mechanics. And why should they? They can move to one of the other professions in the game which most of them can pretty much play the same as their other game counterparts.
Contrary to belief (both political and mentality) people hate change.

ricocheting · Feb 23, 2011, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Utility = You suck at everything better than all the other professions.

This is exactly how I feel. You can argue all you want about what rangers in Guildwars were MEANT to do.

It comes down to the fact nobody can name one USEFUL thing in PvE that rangers can do that some other profession can't do better. That's what people are upset and complaining about. Not necessarily "rangers suck because they have bad dps." If you don't bring anything unique+useful and don't have competitive DPS, what exactly is the point of the class?

When is the last time you ever saw a PvE group specifically looking for a ranger? When people need ranger skills (usually a spirit) they look for a more useful profession that is willing to dump extra attributes into said skill. That right there should tell you something.

Ugh · Feb 23, 2011, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

wrong

Rangers were never meant to be a high DPS class, what they are "meant" to be used for is degen through bleeding and poison, crippling, interrupting, and with proper forethought, trapping.

But because many in the gaming community believe in the all mighty DPS, and because many are morons, they seem to lack the intelligence to play a ranger according to their proper roles, thus many QQ threads about rangers being "inadequate".

Much of the complaining is about the badness of their utility and the futility of using said utility in PvE. In short: ranger rupts suck in PvE, ranger conditions suck in PvE, nature rituals suck, traps suck. That's all they have utility-wise, so what do they have to offer?

Intelligence is not the issue. People don't play rangers according to their proper roles (by choice, not due to mental deficiency) because there is no way to do so effectively in PvE.

Quote:

just like paragons, it is best to have at least 2 rangers on a team complimenting each others builds

For example? The only synergy I see is FW and Winnowing, neither of which are worth the time unless you have a whole team of rangers.

@Red
If people were just upset about their inability to snipe, you'd see QQ about rangers in PvP, too. You don't, though. For almost all PvP areas, rangers are stuck with Apply builds, and people are fine with that because it works.

Bad Company Sin · Feb 23, 2011, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by miriforst

If you wan't interrupts in pve go mesmer. Rangers interrupts are usable in pvp not pve.

Thats what gwen is for.

Xiaquin · Feb 23, 2011, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

People don't play rangers according to their proper roles (by choice, not due to mental deficiency) because there is no way to do so effectively in PvE.

What is a proper role? I use pet, Needling and a daze build mostly, unless Barrage is viable or I'm in NM, and they're still effective.

Pet and Barrage weren't effected by AS. Yes, most of the ranger tool bag is wasteful, but there are some conditions viable in HM and red bars still come down, just not as fast. AS, BUH and scythe were overpowered anyway, wrongly giving the idea that ranger should do extremely high DPS.

Ugh · Feb 23, 2011, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

What is a proper role?

That was just referring to what the fella I quoted said: "what they are "meant" to be used for is degen through bleeding and poison, crippling, interrupting, and with proper forethought, trapping."

Quote:

I use pet, Needling and a daze build mostly, unless Barrage is viable or I'm in NM, and they're still effective.

Effective enough to beat PvE, yes, but so is standing around and watching your H/H fight. Effective compared to possible builds of other classes, no.

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Pet and Barrage weren't effected by AS.

Those aren't especially good, either. Pet problems were previously covered. Other classes can match the damage of a Barrage ranger and provide utility to boot.

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Yes, most of the ranger tool bag is wasteful, but there are some conditions viable in HM and red bars still come down, just not as fast.

The conditions viable in HM aren't available for rangers to inflict effectively. If rangers don't do as much damage and we all just have to deal with that, fine. But they should bring something else to the table to give them a use.

Quote:

AS, BUH and scythe were overpowered anyway, wrongly giving the idea that ranger should do extremely high DPS.

I don't think anyone thinks rangers should do extremely high dps. Personally, I think rangers should have good dps and some utility through Beast Mastery, good utility and some dps through Wilderness Survival, and about an equal distribution in Marksmanship.

Xiaquin · Feb 23, 2011, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Effective enough to beat PvE, yes, but so is standing around and watching your H/H fight. Effective compared to possible builds of other classes, no.

I don't know what hero builds you use, but mine are mostly support and I rarely bring melee. I also don't run things like Discord or spiritway, so, "standing around" is not an option, especially in HM. My guild runs whatever we feel like as we vanquish and the challenge is decent.

You said, "no excuse for a ranger to do anything but Barrage". I named three of my builds and the only "excuse" I've heard to not run them is because of profession envy. Well, if you hate secondary gimmicks, pets and bow builds, you really don't have a choice but to roll something else, do you?

Don't forget, other professions are hurting too, but if you won't accept the options, why settle? Make a dervish; I hear they had an update, or something.

Rites · Feb 23, 2011, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I don't know what hero builds you use, but mine are mostly support and I rarely bring melee. I also don't run things like Discord or spiritway, so, "standing around" is not an option, especially in HM.

agreed

i for one am one of those rangers that do not like twiddling my thumbs and making my H/H do all the work. hell most of my teambuilds wouldn't allow for me to just stand there. the whole 3 necro hero setup so that i can sleep while they vanquish idea to me is terrible gameplay. i log in to GW to PLAY the game, not just watch my heros.

and as far as rangers bringing something unique to the table.... did you forget about expertise? this attribute (which has been copied onto the derv in a way) allows rangers to play as an "ok" alternative when needed. they will never be as tough as a primary warrior, but they can hold their own and even use more energy heavy builds as any warrior, as a secondary monk they can provide minor heals to help alleviate the stress on a monk primary, hell i prefer to use Spirit Spamming on my ranger in HM just because they are more durable than rits.

Rangers are the only class that are MADE to readily accept any secondary

Ugh · Feb 23, 2011, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I don't know what hero builds you use, but mine are mostly support and I rarely bring melee. I also don't run things like Discord or spiritway, so, "standing around" is not an option, especially in HM. My guild runs whatever we feel like as we vanquish and the challenge is decent.

I don't run discord; I bring an SoS, MM, and some sort of mes, usually. H/H are perfectly well off without a ranger's 60 dps, occasional rupts, or whatever.

Quote:

You said, "no excuse for a ranger to do anything but Barrage". I named three of my builds and the only "excuse" I've heard to not run them is because of profession envy.

There's no envy. They suck. Awkward, slow, insignificant builds aren't fun, generally.

Quote:

Well, if you hate secondary gimmicks, pets and bow builds, you really don't have a choice but to roll something else, do you?

No, I could QQ on GWG until Anet buffs something. And I did like bow builds, but they're very dry now; they're slow, weak, and ineffective. All of them. And I do like pet builds on occasion, but they get frustrating quickly.

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Don't forget, other professions are hurting too

Eles are, but they just need a band-aid fix. Paras have one build, but that's better than 0. Rangers have been hurting longer and to a greater degree than any other profession.

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but if you won't accept the options, why settle? Make a dervish; I hear they had an update, or something.

I moved on long ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

i for one am one of those rangers that do not like twiddling my thumbs and making my H/H do all the work.

That statement does not make sense. If you are playing a ranger, you are basically making your H/H do all the work.

Quote:

hell most of my teambuilds wouldn't allow for me to just stand there. the whole 3 necro hero setup so that i can sleep while they vanquish idea to me is terrible gameplay. i log in to GW to PLAY the game, not just watch my heros.

You missed the point by quite a bit.

Quote:

and as far as rangers bringing something unique to the table.... did you forget about expertise? this attribute (which has been copied onto the derv in a way) allows rangers to play as an "ok" alternative when needed.

Versatility is what character slots are for. And that's the exact opposite of bringing something else to the table; it's bringing something that can already be brought, but in a much less effective form.

Quote:

they can provide minor heals to help alleviate the stress on a monk primary, hell i prefer to use Spirit Spamming on my ranger in HM just because they are more durable than rits.

Oh, you're trolling.

miriforst · Feb 24, 2011, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

agreed

i for one am one of those rangers that do not like twiddling my thumbs and making my H/H do all the work. hell most of my teambuilds wouldn't allow for me to just stand there. the whole 3 necro hero setup so that i can sleep while they vanquish idea to me is terrible gameplay. i log in to GW to PLAY the game, not just watch my heros.

and as far as rangers bringing something unique to the table.... did you forget about expertise? this attribute (which has been copied onto the derv in a way) allows rangers to play as an "ok" alternative when needed. they will never be as tough as a primary warrior, but they can hold their own and even use more energy heavy builds as any warrior, as a secondary monk they can provide minor heals to help alleviate the stress on a monk primary, hell i prefer to use Spirit Spamming on my ranger in HM just because they are more durable than rits.

Rangers are the only class that are MADE to readily accept any secondary

Sorry i can't take you seriously, i really can't

Haggis of Doom · Feb 24, 2011, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

i for one am one of those rangers that do not like twiddling my thumbs and making my H/H do all the work. hell most of my teambuilds wouldn't allow for me to just stand there.

You run builds that make the game challenging for you; other people in this thread are trying to find the most efficient way to maw through things.

The goal isn't common, therefore no one is wrong (except perhaps that you're in the wrong thread

)

Amy Awien · Feb 24, 2011, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

i for one am one of those rangers that do not like twiddling my thumbs and making my H/H do all the work.

I for one do not have the illusion that it's my control of my character's bar that is defeating mobs. Face it, H&H are 7/8 of the team - and with a ranger primary, probably more. All we have to do is tweak the builds when neccesary, pull properly and point the bow at what we want killed.

Quote:

and as far as rangers bringing something unique to the table.... did you forget about expertise? this attribute (which has been copied onto the derv in a way) allows rangers to play as an "ok" alternative when needed.

Also the part that gets qq-ed about and sometimes nerfed. We're not allowed to play our secondaries effectively and certainly not as effective as the originals. Since we don't have the skillsets to create effective pure rangers, rangers don't get a spot.

Quote:

... as a secondary monk they can provide minor heals to help alleviate the stress on a monk primary,

I thought I'd heard it all. If you want to heal, /D has a touch heal that actually heals for a worthwhile amount. Otherwise, your time, energy is wasted ... an offensively more capable character could have prevented more healing by actually killing stuff. And honestly, do you think rangers are invited because of their healing capabilities.

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Rangers are the only class that are MADE to readily accept any secondary

Well, I think any serious spellcasting would be awkward, we lack the energy. You could probably design bars, even an Orders bar for a Ranger primary - with Marksman's Wager or Scavenger's Focus for e-management) but I doubt it would be anywhere near as effective as - for the orders bar - the N/, D/N or E/N alternatives. Or maybe you can Draw Conditions or Foul Feast to feed Melandru's Resilience to cast whatever you like.